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View Full Version : Crystal brush..$10k 1st prize painting comp



Captain Sprout
29-10-2010, 08:29 PM
That's some sort of prize!

Coolmini or not hosting 'Crystal brush' in Chicago.

CoolMiniOrNot Inc announced today the Crystal Brush Awards, which will be a painting competition held at AdeptiCon 2011 in Chicago from April 1st to 3rd 2011.

Announcement

http://coolminiornot.com/forums/showthread.php?40465-Record-10-000-prize-for-best-painted-miniature-at-Crystal-Brush-2011

Site

http://www.crystalbrush.com/

Orki
29-10-2010, 08:46 PM
Yikes!! :O

War Griffon
29-10-2010, 08:49 PM
Don't think I will bother entering this for several reasons.

1. The travel costs involved to get to the States in the first place,
2. "Judging will be by panel selected by CoolMiniOrNot and Adepticon, which shall account for 50% of the score. 50% of the score shall be determined by popular vote on CoolMiniOrNot.com between April 1st and April 3rd."
3. There's a few other rules and whatever amongst it that I see are going to get abused one way or another as well.

Orki
29-10-2010, 09:05 PM
Don't think I will bother entering this for several reasons.

1. The travel costs involved to get to the States in the first place,
2. "Judging will be by panel selected by CoolMiniOrNot and Adepticon, which shall account for 50% of the score. 50% of the score shall be determined by popular vote on CoolMiniOrNot.com between April 1st and April 3rd."
3. There's a few other rules and whatever amongst it that I see are going to get abused one way or another as well.

Agreed.

Id like to add no.4 - I've got no chance of winning!

Captain Sprout
29-10-2010, 09:07 PM
I'd definitely have no chance but its an extraordinary amount of money for a painting comp, so should make for some nice minis.

War Griffon
29-10-2010, 09:12 PM
6 inch base limit on a single 54mm scale model!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What are they expecting people to put on that a whole battlefield?

Oh and Diorama is limited to an 8 inch base size...

Captain Sprout
29-10-2010, 09:12 PM
For $10k, a house you can also live in.

Jabberwocky
29-10-2010, 10:01 PM
Wow! It will be interesting to see, no doubt. And you think the rampant vote padding/sniping was bad when people were trying to get a meaningless number above 9.0...
I hope the pictures are posted by the judging staff only and done so anonymously to minimize name recognition. 10k is an impressive prize, though.

ScottRadom
29-10-2010, 11:28 PM
This prize is too much. WAY to easy to get abused. And with such a subjective thing like painting it's too tough I think.

Lost Boy
30-10-2010, 01:57 AM
Daft...:rolleyes:

mercius
30-10-2010, 02:58 AM
I will be nice and just say "interesting".

Darkmessiah
30-10-2010, 04:51 AM
i think it looks like it could be a really cool comp, really generous prizes, really nice trophies, open to any type of mini or scene u want to enter, minis get to be judged over a few days rather than a few hrs and whilst the online voting side of things will be unpredictable i think it will offer a little more consistency if properly done, should be some epic minis coming out for that!

RogerB
30-10-2010, 10:31 AM
It should produce some excellent pieces but I agree the voting system could be open to abuse.

Iacton
30-10-2010, 10:44 AM
Good opportunity to tidy up the voting system a bit though. If only registered members can vote, and once each then we should see a bit more fairness - even if one or 2 people decide to open multiple accounts....

Darklord
30-10-2010, 10:47 AM
think our prizes are better :cheeky:

RobinS
30-10-2010, 10:53 AM
I don't believe in money prizes for figure competitions...

Iacton
30-10-2010, 10:57 AM
So there's no cash for the Peterboro thing then Robin?

meh... :throttle:

RobinS
30-10-2010, 11:30 AM
no competition at the peterboro thing matey...I'll buy you a tea though hows that

Robin

Darkmessiah
30-10-2010, 01:05 PM
I don't believe in money prizes for figure competitions...

any particular reason why??

Vern
30-10-2010, 01:07 PM
Hmmm, should be some nice entries, but on the whole http://serve.mysmiley.net/indifferent/indifferent0014.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net/free-scared-smileys.php)

The online bit will be tricky, but they could be on the right track ...


Internet Voting

1. All entriest that make first cut will be photographed/recorded at the Awards on the day of entry by staff.
2. These photogrpahs will be placed online at the same time. Voting will be open on April 2nd for 24 hours.
3. Entrants will not be identified during Internet voting.
4. Entries will be rotated so that they receive roughly the same number of votes.
5. The full procedure for Internet voting will be disclosed closer to the date of the Awards.

Procedures may change without notice.

RobinS
30-10-2010, 01:16 PM
any particular reason why??

I feel it would be adverse to the hobby and bring to it a few things that I for one don't want in the hobby, money ruins. Theres already talk of how judging is done throw money in and watch the chat after that, accusations etc

Money does that

Robin

ScottRadom
30-10-2010, 01:52 PM
I'm with Robin here, it's just too much cash to dangle out there.

People are not going to be happy with how the staff took their pic's of their entries, people will argue the angles were wrong etc. Look at the whining people did for the judging at GDUK then multiply it by 10,000 bucks.

It's a cool idea, but for something as subjective as this judging artistic quality of a mini is going to 'cause problems. I'd sooner see the grandprize broken up into several smaller prizes ande doled out that way. But that's just me.

shanerozzell
30-10-2010, 01:54 PM
I totally agree with Robin. I think we all know the problems with the CMoN voting system and how many times have I read about people getting their friends to vote up a mini for the higher ratings. I know this shortlist will be decided by the judges but people will still know what their mate painted. Throw in the added incentive of $10k.... Personally I think it's crass

Lost Boy
30-10-2010, 01:54 PM
think our prizes are better :cheeky:
And the opinions a lot more worthwhile...:smile:

How can it be a competition showcasing the best the world has to offer when it's only the people who turn up on the day that can enter? Really it's just the best (mostly) America has to offer and a few foreigners who are rich enough to travel all that way...:rolleyes:

I really don't see the point of such a big cash prize. If they have that much money to play with then why not give a smaller prize (like, say, a $1000...) and donate the rest to the charity of the winner's choice...

Seems like a good idea to me...but then what does my opinion matter...:ass:

Vern
30-10-2010, 02:02 PM
I tend to agree with Robin - I'm not saying anything about judges integrity, but large amounts of cash can muddy the waters of any hobby

.... it's also the same year as the World Expo ...

Vern
30-10-2010, 02:02 PM
I tend to agree with Robin - I'm not saying anything about judges integrity, but large amounts of cash can muddy the waters of any hobby

.... it's also the same year as the World Expo ...

RobinS
30-10-2010, 02:05 PM
We have over the years got by on the Kudos it is to win Demons, Euro medals any number of other medals both here an abroad ....most of us can tell you what certain people look like and there is a certain amount to fame to winning these prizes in our hobby.

Do they think that different great painters are going to come out of the woodwork, or that some us are mysteriously going to start painting at the standard thats needed to win this prize, I would love to know what the thinking is behind it...

Robin

ScottRadom
30-10-2010, 02:08 PM
I just think Chern is setting himself up here. Even if everything goes PERFECTLY with the judging and so on I am positive their is going to be some kind of movement started about how things were biased or so on. It's just too big of a prize.

Darkmessiah
30-10-2010, 02:28 PM
whilst i agree that the prizes should be broken up a lot more so everyone who places walks away with somthin, I do think their needs to be a big prize incentive to draw people over, most of the top painters are in europe or further, i think its only fair they get some reward for travelling. As for robinS point, i actually think their will be a lot of competition for the top 3, iv been to gd france and germany this year and I was constantly surprised at the top quality painters Id never even heard of. Germany is prob the best example, the guy who beat me into third for warhammer monster was at his first ever demon and he wasnt the only one. Theirs always new talent coming through, always people improving, I think enough of the top painters will travel to make it competitive and I think their will be alot of new names winning trophies

Jabberwocky
30-10-2010, 03:05 PM
The online voting process looks to be a good start. I sincerely hope this works out well for them. I do think that no matter how well run, there will be allegations that something was not done properly. On a positive note, I've never seen my wife so excited about a convention before! She's taken a whole new interest in my mini painting, lol.

frogimus
30-10-2010, 03:14 PM
I love my nation's tendency to throw cash at anything we don't dominate

Maybe if there are enough high dollar prizes in mini painting, it will attract more people to the "sport"

[/sarcasm]

RobinS
30-10-2010, 03:17 PM
Its funny isn't it how one of the main topic of conversations after GD is the stopping of the first past the post system, moving over to the multiple gold and silver etc system, because often there is more than one model deserving of a gold.

This is pushing away from that, yes it will bring out all the best, the consistent winners of medals will compete if they get there, but think of trying to pick three figures out of that and then explain, cos lets face it if you came second and had just lost out on $8K you would want to know what's wrong with your figure wouldn't you, and the judges are going to have to explain why. And on top of that you have the already suspect CoolMini or not voting system to contend with.

Robin

War Griffon
30-10-2010, 03:22 PM
I feel it would be adverse to the hobby and bring to it a few things that I for one don't want in the hobby, money ruins. Theres already talk of how judging is done throw money in and watch the chat after that, accusations etc

Money does that

Robin

I agree completely, medals/statues and free figures are what makes the competitions fun throw in money and the whole thing goes a different way.

I really don't want to see this happen, there is already competitions that attract top class painters to enter but with prize money like this I can see a whole lot of trouble on the horizon and the competitors it is going to attract will not be good for the hobby.

Boris
30-10-2010, 03:47 PM
I think there's always going to be issues with the judging - its the same in any competition anywhere, but I think this is a good idea.
By adding a cash prize it's seen by people outside of the hobby as something worth attention - only money does that. To be honest, it's always the status that really matters, no one really does anything with a medal, trophy or sword - but saying you won one of those means a lot to others in the hobby. I'm sure a lot of people would rather have cold hard cash in their hand at the end of the day - and they can do what they want with it.

Adding public voting takes some of the heat off the judges - but we all know how we feel about CMoN voting. With so much cash added to this comp, it makes me hope the planning will be equally spectacular - as that is where people will be disappointed more than anything else.
On the plus side, public voting means we all get to see the entries before the results in hopefully great photos online - without having to leave our sofa, and we all get a chance to say which one we think should win etc. Take this away from the bad rep of CMoN and isn't this something we'd love to see happen in a big competition.

Yes money causes problems, but we we don't learn to stop *****ing there's always going to be problems.

I hope this attracts some fantastic models and I look forward to seeing the photos. I wish them all the best for the comp, cos this is going to attract a lot of attention - and as is all too common in this hobby a lot of critics. I hope they can pull it off and show people outside the hobby, as well as those in it that it's something worth seeing and doing.

shanerozzell
30-10-2010, 04:09 PM
End of the day, when we paint a mini we put more into it than applying paint!. It's bad enough when we think we have done a good mini and it gets knocked down because of the CMON voting system. I know a lot of people say "I don't care about the scores..." but when someone gets that 8 that changes! thro money into it and its going to be a real B I T C H fest!
Boris has some good points about it attracting people to the hobby and we're in for a real treat seeing the mini that make the cut but I feel this will also draw a lot of bad into the hobby and its naive to think it wouldn't.

War Griffon
30-10-2010, 04:10 PM
One thought on this if Coolmini are putting up the prize money, where are the funds coming from for this amount of cash, it can't all be funded by the people entering because with that sort of money a lot of people are going to consider themselves not having a hope in hell of winning a 1st past the post prize let alone a shout at the big bucks.

GW dropped all the US GD's because of attendance figures etc and it is shown time and again that the US shows are smaller than a lot of the UK shows and as this is riding on the back of a show they are not organising then I doubt they will be allowed a cut of the entrance fee so surely they are not planning on funding it from entry to the competition fees?

Personally I think the money would be better spent helping another part of the hobby.

This is not going to attract the consistent medal winners but I think it is also going to attract people from outside of the hobby (i.e. the art world) thinking they can make a quick couple tousand bucks off it and then disappear off the scene until the next big money competition comes along therefore putting nothing into the hobby itself.

As for the photo side of the judging, we all know how the figures always look different in a photo compared to what you see in real life unless they are going to hire a world class photographer to take the shots and hence add more costs...

Might as well hold the damn thing at a casino in Vegas and have done with it because that is what I feel will happen in the end and the hobby will lose the enjoyment and become a circus.

kdlynch
30-10-2010, 04:14 PM
@shane: I don't care about those CMON scores. >>grumbles about my 8 for the Journey<< hehehe

@war: seems GenCon's attendance is up though (over 30k unique people this year)... perhaps it's just the way the GD's are run in the US that are causing poor turnout.

frogimus
30-10-2010, 04:15 PM
If you look at the crystal thingie website, it shows sponsorship by Wyrd, DAG, and 2 or 3 other manufacturers

but that's still a lot of pennies invested by each one

War Griffon
30-10-2010, 04:45 PM
@war: seems GenCon's attendance is up though (over 30k unique people this year)... perhaps it's just the way the GD's are run in the US that are causing poor turnout.

I may be wrong and things have changed over the years and I am sure somebody is going to correct me if I am wrong :smile:

But isn't Gencon and Adepticon run as gaming shows so these entrance figures are not just wargamers but LARPers, AD&D/D&D, role players etc and therefore unlikely to enter the painting competition?
What was the number of entries to the painting comp at Gencon/Adepticoc this year?

The numbers through the door is over several days most of these people will not stay more than one or two days.
Although they may have sponsorship from other companies such as Wyrd etc 10K even in USD is still a hell of a lot of money to fork out or buy into as the case may be especially these days when a lot of companies are struggling to stay afloat what with rising costs etc.

Vern
30-10-2010, 04:47 PM
it can't all be funded by the people entering

I think it's free to enter(?)


In the event of any dispute, the sum total liability of CoolMiniOrNot to any entrant shall be whatever the entrant paid to CoolMiniOrNot directly related to the Crystal Brush 2011 competition, i.e. $0. All rules subject to change without notice

frogimus
30-10-2010, 04:58 PM
Although they may have sponsorship from other companies such as Wyrd etc 10K even in USD is still a hell of a lot of money to fork out or buy into as the case may be especially these days when a lot of companies are struggling to stay afloat what with rising costs etc.

Exactly. 5 "corporate" sponsors so far, so that is $2k each. That's a lot of spec money for companies their size, especially in the US market where wargaming and mini painting isn't very big. CMON may be banking on ad revenue from the increased web traffic but that is still pretty iffy

Captain Sprout
30-10-2010, 07:16 PM
I am not sure the CMON voting system will be made better or worse by the addition of money I think its pretty flawed and cliquey anyway and this will be flawed and cliquey with lots of cash attached to it. The only difference is the cash.

I think this will produce some really great models and I guess that's the perspective I look at it from.

I am unlikely to be complaining about being cheated out of prizes at comps or worrying my models won't win a demon or a medal at Euro and I look on entering as something fun. I prefer the Euro entry and medal system but I don't think it would be sullied if it had money attached or would be worse for not having any. I don't think people will shun other comps if they cannot win 10k or 10p really.

Its a publicity thing more than an attempt to change the hobby and I don't think the hobby is tainted by it. I'd go if it was here myself.

Boris
30-10-2010, 07:57 PM
Diorama size has been increased to 30x30x30 to match GD sizes, apparently there was a metric/inch conversion issue.

Chern Ann
30-10-2010, 08:16 PM
Wow, that's a lot of response to the news. Thought I'd drop in and explain some of our thoughts here.

While there doesn't need to be an incentive to create, there needs to be an incentive to compete. Why put yourself out there to be judged by someone else? Be it the prize, prestige, marketing upside for the professional painters, personal satisfaction at being declared the best and acknowledged by peers, there are many reasons and many different competitions out there. By this reasoning, Games Workshop should just throw away the trophies and Slayer Sword and expect everyone to show up with painted models for a nice pat on the back and a hearty "Well done!". We don't think that's a good thing though. Competition is very enjoyable for those that like it; and for those that don't, it doesn't really change anything for them and they get to see work that might not have actually been made, let alone made accessible to the public.

In any hobby, sport or leisure activity, for it to achieve a measure of credibility, some sort of incentive that the public at large understands needs to be involved. We think that it's time to raise the profile of the hobby a bit so that we're not continuously stereotyped as basement dwellers living with our parents.

Judging art is subjective and difficult, and it is similar to any talent contest to be honest. Hence the 50% professional judges, and 50% popular vote. We can't please everyone, so we'll go with the folks that can accept and understand our view, art isn't meant to be appraised by an elite few.

As for vote rigging, sniping etc, well, when the time comes round you'll see we're not total fools :). Of course, the brave souls who are prepared to risk being the first participants will go down in history as well as having a higher chance to walk away with the $13k total prize money.... hint hint

shanerozzell
30-10-2010, 08:22 PM
right so it looks like it not wholly based on score but also number of views. Now I'm really confused!

Chern Ann
30-10-2010, 08:27 PM
right so it looks like it not wholly based on score but also number of views. Now I'm really confused!

Where are you getting that? The rules were vetted a few times by us and the events guys at AdeptiCon, but if need be we can clarify points of confusion on the official site. Oh, and no, it's not based on views at all.

ScottRadom
30-10-2010, 08:29 PM
Well I wish for the best Chern, and thanks for posting. I understand completely that to kickstart a convention and give it credibility a big 'ole lump of cash will certainly do that. It's obvious this is a serious competition! I still worry very much about how much that amount of cash may effect the process of people entering (are people allowed to enter an entry as a team, breaking up the work?) and I hope my concerns for any type of distasteful reactions after the prizes are handed out are unfounded.

Chern, it's obvious you're a go big or go home kind of guy!

Boris
30-10-2010, 08:32 PM
The main rules say no teams Scott.

shanerozzell
30-10-2010, 08:36 PM
Of course, the brave souls who are prepared to risk being the first participants will go down in history as well as having a higher chance to walk away with the $13k total prize money.... hint hint


When I saw this I thought it meant that the longer it was up the more chance of winning. the only way to sort that would be to base it on number of views.

Chern Ann
30-10-2010, 08:41 PM
When I saw this I thought it meant that the longer it was up the more chance of winning. the only way to sort that would be to base it on number of views.

Ohh... no I meant this competition is going to be a permanent fixture. We'll run it every year for the foreseeable future.

Scott, the rules basically say, we don't care who the sculptors are, but the painter has to be one guy. We needed to adopt this rule since we don't make a distinction between one off sculpts or mass produced parts; there are many talented sculpting professionals out there; the line is impossibly blurred when we accept entries from any manufacturer (or no manufacturer). Since it's not practical to list every possible sculptor who contributed to the piece (kind of unfair to leave the guy who did the base sculpt out but include the guy who did an extra shoulderpad), we decided to leave them all out (sorry sculptors, maybe we'll have a sculpting competition in future). So you can have any number of different guys or manufacturers working on your sculpt, if you want to acknowledge them when you receive the award for best painter you can.

That said, if you're thinking of starting a miniature company, now would be a great time to have some awesome sculpts show up painted by an excellent painter. The excitement closer to the date will be electric, I guarantee it.

mercius
30-10-2010, 08:44 PM
If I ever broke an 8 on CMON I would poop my pants...I agree with Robin and with most of the sentiment here, the large sum of prize money, coupled with a broken voting system are going to cripple this one. I am looking forward to seeing the minis that come about because of this though.

RogerB
30-10-2010, 08:45 PM
It'll be interesting to see if it draws people away from the World Expo, or whether people will try for both, as they're very close together time wise.

mercius
30-10-2010, 08:46 PM
My comment isn't a swipe at Chern btw...I wish him the best with this, kudos if it gets pulled off, I just forsee lots of issues here.

Captain Sprout
30-10-2010, 09:24 PM
Interesting post Chern, thanks. I look forward to seeing the great work that comes from the comp.

While there doesn't need to be an incentive to create, there needs to be an incentive to compete. Why put yourself out there to be judged by someone else? Be it the prize, prestige, marketing upside for the professional painters, personal satisfaction at being declared the best and acknowledged by peers, there are many reasons and many different competitions out there. By this reasoning, Games Workshop should just throw away the trophies and Slayer Sword and expect everyone to show up with painted models for a nice pat on the back and a hearty "Well done!". We don't think that's a good thing though. Competition is very enjoyable for those that like it; and for those that don't, it doesn't really change anything for them and they get to see work that might not have actually been made, let alone made accessible to the public.

I don't really agree with your reasoning that trophies and accolades are not enough for people to compete.. perhaps you've not been to something like Euro Militaire but there is a very different atmosphere there to a GD. There are a lot of painting comps out there beyond the ones hosted by GW and from having attended GD recently I can say it was quite unreal compared to other comps.

While a few painters are keen to turn the hobby into a business for themselves (and that is great if they like it, its less great when they encourage an army of fanboys to prop them on CM to keep their prices high) and there are painters who command high prices..they are not interested in the accolades, just the money. There is nothing wrong with producing fabulous work for a gold medal vs work for 10k and I don't believe you will get better work than someone would do for World Expo..if you do that would actually be a shame in a sense.

I think it will be a cool comp and I look forward to seeing what comes out of it, but for a lot of people accolades and trophies are good enough and there is nothing wrong with that. I see amazing work all the time, done for the joy of making it.

RobinS
31-10-2010, 11:20 AM
While there doesn't need to be an incentive to create, there needs to be an incentive to compete. Why put yourself out there to be judged by someone else? Be it the prize, prestige, marketing upside for the professional painters, personal satisfaction at being declared the best and acknowledged by peers, there are many reasons and many different competitions out there. By this reasoning, Games Workshop should just throw away the trophies and Slayer Sword and expect everyone to show up with painted models for a nice pat on the back and a hearty "Well done!". We don't think that's a good thing though. Competition is very enjoyable for those that like it; and for those that don't, it doesn't really change anything for them and they get to see work that might not have actually been made, let alone made accessible to the public.


No on has said that trophies and such should be thrown away, whether you give someone a gold medal or a cheque for an amount of money that's all your doing, patting them on the back and saying well done when you break it down like you have done, its only different ways of doing it. When you say change something for them, are you saying that because they win a model show it should be a life changing experience.


In any hobby, sport or leisure activity, for it to achieve a measure of credibility, some sort of incentive that the public at large understands needs to be involved. We think that it's time to raise the profile of the hobby a bit so that we're not continuously stereotyped as basement dwellers living with our parents.

Raising the profile of the hobby is an admirable thing to want to do and its something that lots of people do each and every day,Brett here, the Sheffield irregulars any number of other people, It saddens me that to get the public interested in our hobby we have to have big cash prizes and shows what a world we live in.



Judging art is subjective and difficult, and it is similar to any talent contest to be honest. Hence the 50% professional judges, and 50% popular vote. We can't please everyone, so we'll go with the folks that can accept and understand our view, art isn't meant to be appraised by an elite few.

As for vote rigging, sniping etc, well, when the time comes round you'll see we're not total fools :). Of course, the brave souls who are prepared to risk being the first participants will go down in history as well as having a higher chance to walk away with the $13k total prize money.... hint hint


I thought about this for a while and it struck me that if you get the winner this way then you are not actually after the best painted or sculpted model, your after the most popular and that's what you'll get, your asking people to judge models for technical skill etc by looking at a photo, you will need to supply lots of images, a 360 degree look round each of the models, top views views looking down and up to mimic how a judge should look at a model they are judging to win a 10K prize maybe even a movie of them moving round. Will the pictures be approved by the modellers themselves, to make sure its showing the model to its best in their opinion?

If I take a step back and look at the replies and such I have seen, it looks like the competition will be well received and you will get the entries that you want, and they will be fantastic models, and it will be a great day out and experience. But lots of competitions do that each year, they built up to it though over a number of years by showing that a certain quality has to be presented to get a medal awarded by judges, by making the gold difficult to get and mean something, I think your trying to circumvent that a little by adding that incentive of money to get the right painters at your competition.

Forgive the question but its another nagging thing in my head, $13K is a lot of money even to be put up by a number of companies, mini companies are not usually that well off with the odd exception of course ( GW, Privateer Press) what's the return going to be for them?

Robin

Vern
31-10-2010, 04:23 PM
Thanks for coming along Chern, and giving some of your reasoning's, I still don't like the money aspect, but you wish you and your organisers every success.

On the plus side, it does mean for a 24hr period there will be a lot eye candy (although I wonder how many SM's & DKOK there will be :tongue:)

Also, as the entries are going to be anonymous, presumably WIP's on various forums, blogs etc won't be aloud? If this is the case, I would clarify it sooner rather than later

Chern Ann
31-10-2010, 08:34 PM
Captain Sprout, I was responding to a post about how in an ideal world we should not require an incentive to create, but I said that we need an incentive to compete (whatever that incentive is), please read my sentence carefully again. Yes, for those that like it, competing in GDs with GW only figures is good enough. I don't think anyone here has actually stated, "nah, don't think anyone will really be interested in showing up for a chance at the $10k". For some people, $10k is hell of an incentive. For others, knowing that the former group, some of whom have serious talent, will be showing up would be a great incentive too ("I want to face the best"). It's win / win either way.

Without going too much into details where there is a different philosophical view, I'll just put this down and leave it at that. People who know me well, even from forum interactions over the years, know I'm a pragmatist and not an idealist. My personal opinion is, people are people, not very good, and not very bad; angels and monsters are far and few between. That's just the way life is, and I try not to get mad about it.

Golden Demon is a great competition, and has created significant mindshare with fantasy and SF miniature enthusiasts. Now, I know there are plenty of local level competitions, and even Gencon but these hardly make a dent in the collective consciousness due to, as mentioned, the length of time and level of competition that the GD has attracted. This is a statement of fact from my point of view, it's just the truth that for most other competitions the entrants will not be remembered 2 weeks after they are done, nor even be widely reported while the competition is ongoing. Whether you think this is a sad fact or happy fact I suppose depends on whether or not you have GW shares, I just view it as a fact I have to work with and I don't really care either way.

There are two issues with GD raised by its many critics in the past. First, having dominated the Fantasy and SF mindshare, only allowing their own product to compete stifles the rest of the industry (i.e. "we" are the industry and everyone else is a wannabe hobbyist, not their words of course). This is good in the short term but might be self defeating if people as a whole lose interest because they view the entire hobby as stagnating with no fresh ideas (one of the cited reasons that home console gaming disappeared between Atari's demise and Nintendo's entrance). I guess that Rackham was a big scare to GW, as is Privateer Press, which in turn, creates news and buzz for everyone and also pushes up GW's game. Without competition, I think we'd still be looking at the same ol Beakies from 1990 (with price rises) instead of the amazing plastic kits now... but I digress.

Second, GW staff only judging has been the basis of complaints for years. Everyone is a critic and expert of course, so anyone that doesn't agree with "me" is either a fool, corrupt or just plain wrong (I'm paraphrasing again, but essentially that's what it boils down to). There is nothing wrong with having a pre-determined panel judge entries, it is a valid method of judging and entrants submit themselves to this knowing it in advance. If you respect the judges, more often than not, you respect the decision. However, that's not to say there isn't room for alternatives.

Every time someone criticizes the GD, inevitably the brilliant retort will come, "Why don't you run a competition yourself" or "What's the alternative?". Well, here it is, it's a mystery to me why it didn't happen sooner frankly, considering the number of smaller companies out there that produce Fantasy and SF (like Red Box Games, Soda Pop, Enigma, Andrea, Wyrd etc) that would greatly benefit from international exposure on this level. So, now you have choices. If you want to enter an international level competition (the prize money helps to do that, granted) but not with GW figures, then do the CB. If you don't like "elitist" judges (again, I don't necessarily agree with this attitude) having all the say, then you have the CB. If you are perfectly satisfied doing what you're doing, then stick with the GD. If you are not violently against either format, participate in both for twice the fun! Tre Manor (owner of Red Box) has already started trying to "persuade" people to enter Red Box Games minis into the comp. More power to him, and I hope he does well, his figures deserve more attention.

Now, why the popular voting component? Well, audience participation is a great thing and increases investment by everyone involved. American Idol and countless other open format competitions have proved that, it's certainly a lot more interesting than a ho-hum Talentime. This ensures the competition is widely covered while it is happening, and also gives notice to everyone that cares to pay attention while it is going on, since they can affect the outcome. Next, and this gets a little philosophical and similar to my thinking on CoolMiniOrNot, I am a great believer in market forces; I've read comments that the competition will reward "flavor of the month" methods instead of technical skill, to which I say, so what? Who's the judge of technical skill? Screw that, if the audience enjoys it, should I really care if 10 self proclaimed experts don't? That's a recipe for stagnation and seeing the same thing over and over ad nauseum. The idea that standards and tastes change over time is scary for some, especially when working towards a goal ("what do you mean I'm obsolete, I just figured out how to do wet blending/nmm/feathering/Space Marines etc!"), but again, c'est la vie. Thirdly, drawing audience participation also feeds benefit back into CoolMiniOrNot before, during and after the event. That's just marketing, and really, who can blame me :).

While I'm on the subject of marketing, capturing imaginations is big part of it, and frankly, there's no better way than a big wodge of cash. I know it's a little crass, but again, that's just human nature. Whether you imagine winning it yourself, or imagine the destruction of the miniature hobby as you know it, you are thinking about it at least. The very fact that we're having this discussion at all shows that it's working. In this day and age it's hard to cut through the noise and chaff we are bombarded with, and nothing says we're serious better than putting our wallets where our mouths are. If all I showed up with was a piece of glassware and a vague promise of a good turnout, it'd have been a bit of a damp squib I can promise you (go google miniature painting competition and see how many you've heard of. Then go ask someone on the spanish-team forums whether they have any idea what the heck you're talking about. If you're the exception to the rule and are some kind of miniature painting competition groupie, I apologize in advance.)

Finally, $13k in the scheme of things is not a large sum of money (it may get you a nasty foreclosed house though, come to think of it). I don't know where you get the idea that the majority of miniature companies are struggling? By my estimate, miniature war gaming alone is a $750 million industry, and possibly even more (including historicals). I don't understand the perpetual underdog mentality that some miniature gamers have, it's a perfectly acceptable past time and industry and there are a LOT of us. Of course, that's not to say that companies come and go for whatever reason, that's just par for the course in any industry. What each sponsor gets out of it, well, that's up to them to follow through with, but I don't think they'll be disappointed.

CoolMiniOrNot isn't exactly a garage business either, and we have been continuously online since 2001 (with minor outages :P). If you aren't aware, we distribute and/or publish several miniature lines, including our own, and we do it internationally and have just set up CoolMiniOrNot SL in Spain. Not to worry, we'll be ok :)

ScottRadom
31-10-2010, 08:50 PM
Well, at least here in Saskatoon, people who've never even heard of World Exp no know about the Crytal Brush comp!

I am def. intrigued. I am unfamiliar with adepticon. Will it be a kind of mini painting extravaganza with classes and all that jazz? If so I might look into attending. Not so much for the comp this year (Though I'd likely enter something just to say I did).

I still think that after hearing all the fuss regarding judging and such after GD's and the like that it can only get amplified 10,000 fold in this case. It's definetly a unique event! Good luck Chern!

warhammergrimace
31-10-2010, 09:17 PM
I really don't have an issue with prize money attached to a competition. Over the years I've entered short writing comps, short film comps and screen writing competitions all with money attached as prizes. Some of the film comps have a far bigger money pot than 10 grand, and none of these have killed the hobby, and all of these comps were aimed at amatuers not professionals. I've also entered photographic comps which have been amatuer and professional with money prize pots, I really don't have an issue with this.

I think this will raise the profile of miniature painting, because it'll get more people discussing the hobby BECAUSE of the prize money, for good or bad, it may also bring a lot of painters out of the woodwork, who wouldn't normally have entered into the world under normal circumstances.

The judging side I'll leave my comments until the comp, though I do think that the CURRENT form of judging on Cool mini is open to manipulation, but if they keep this in mind then it shouldn't be too m uch of an issue, but art is subjective and not everyone will agree on that same painted miniature as each other which is a good thing. Public voting is always going to be strange just look at TV shows which have a public vote, but it is only 50% of the vote. I'll wait to post any judgement of the voting on this comp until after the comp.

Personally I wish Chern all the best with this and hope it goes well.

Vern
31-10-2010, 09:26 PM
Well, Chern I think I do understand your reasoning behind the competition, so thanks for that (although I do think you should perhaps read Capt's reply more carfully).
I don't agree with many of your conclusions, and if anything feel more uneasy about the whole thing, but hey, it's not my tourney, so good luck!

On the WIP's, yay or nay?

mercius
31-10-2010, 10:44 PM
Good luck Chern, I hope this turns out well for you. Thanks for posting your thoughts on the matter.

Captain Sprout
31-10-2010, 11:11 PM
I didn't say miniature companies were struggling, I expressed no view on that so not sure where you got that idea at all. Some of your statements had nothing to do with what I posted so while it might suit you to proclaim this or that or the other as if every issue raised about this is personal to me and that's great marketing for you, I happen to have an issue with having things attributed to me that I did not say and being talked to like I am 3 years old and either a mad hobby obsessive or someone who dislikes change. But its all gravy for you, as they say and when people post your reply on other forums (as they have done) it will certainly make me look like a nutter. Cheers.

Thanks for the follow up post though, its interesting to get an American perspective on these things and judging by the view of comps you talk about, which are restricted to GW ones and smaller stuff inspired by the fantasy / GW dominated view of the hobby, its clear the larger miniature comps inspired by the other aspects of the hobby, that were turning out amazing work when GW was an infant idea and the hobby around that doesn't have much traction on cool mini and perhaps that is a prevalent view.

I am sure your comp will be a success, anything that throws that amount of money compared to the 0 in other comps will be as long as you are fair about it and I look forward to seeing the pictures and things it inspires.

War Griffon
01-11-2010, 12:21 AM
Do people not listen or remember to what they have said or what has been said about voting and the current views on the 1st past the post voting system?

Not so long ago there was a massive discussions across the internet about the first past the post judging system now you are all going to go along with this comp which is basically a first past the post just because it has a $10K prize pot!!!!!!

Yes it might pull in a few painters from different countries but what else will it pull in from outside of the hobby?

Apart from being a lot of eye candy on the day what are some of these outside people going to put back into the hobby?

The hobby isn't broken, the decline in a lot of the Europeans/Americans travelling to different GD shows is down to costs over the last couple of years and the attitude of GD itself, a good show doesn't need stupid money for prizes and I feel the same as Robin this is not a good road to be taking the hobby.

It has been noted on other forums that the lack of attendance by French, Spanish, German and Italian painters at other countries Games Day's across Europe this year but besides the recession do you not think it is because of people getting fed up of the Games Workshop competition mentality and limitations partly to blame for this?

What makes you think that a single prize of this magnitude will breach this gap?

In order for a European painter to go to the States to enter this or for an American painter to go to Europe for a similar event if there was to be one would mean an investment of several hundred Euro's/GBP/USD or whatever currency for a flight of several thousand miles in most cases, this would often mean the price doubling or even tripling because most people would need to take the family and all for the possibility that they MIGHT win the big prize, its a bit like selling your house and putting all the money on the lottery in the hope you will win the jackpot!!!

The knock on from this will be greed because if a venue knows there is going to be a large pot of money for a competition then they will charge the organisers more which will then be passed on to the punter attending these conventions. Hotels etc in the area will also bump up prices just like in other countries when there is a shortage or a chance to exploit people.

Think of this "As for vote rigging, sniping etc, well, when the time comes round you'll see we're not total fools " so why is there always arguments on CMoN about the public voting system and nothing has been done about it?

Euro-Militaire saw record attendance and entry submissions this year along with top painters from all over, World Expo in Spain two years ago saw top painters from all over the world, and next years World Expo will no doubt see the same.

Why is there suddenly a need to put a massive money prize on a competition in a show that has been going for years?

Are the American show organisers that desperate to get people from Europe to attend its shows at a time of recession and high priced air fares?

If this is going to be so good for the hobby then why limit the figure scale?

The rules are so transparent at the moment the arguments and backlash is going to be horrendous.

This is not an argument or a slag off CMoN thread, I still like what you have done with CMoN and where you have taken it so far and I will continue to support CMoN, what you do with your money is entirely up to you. However, like others I have an opinion which will not always be agreeable to others :smile:

You talk about very few shows outside the States and Europe in general and you mention Games Day's in most of these yet to my knowledge you have not visited any of the shows in the UK, yet in the UK alone there is over 30 shows a year (and that is not including Games Day or the Forgeworld Open Day), most of these shows have painting competitions which do not revolve around just Games Workshop figures.

Lost Boy
01-11-2010, 12:37 AM
I didn't say miniature companies were struggling, I expressed no view on that so not sure where you got that idea at all. Some of your statements had nothing to do with what I posted so while it might suit you to proclaim this or that or the other as if every issue raised about this is personal to me and that's great marketing for you, I happen to have an issue with having things attributed to me that I did not say and being talked to like I am 3 years old and either a mad hobby obsessive or someone who dislikes change. But its all gravy for you, as they say and when people post your reply on other forums (as they have done) it will certainly make me look like a nutter. Cheers.

Thanks for the follow up post though, its interesting to get an American perspective on these things and judging by the view of comps you talk about, which are restricted to GW ones and smaller stuff inspired by the fantasy / GW dominated view of the hobby, its clear the larger miniature comps inspired by the other aspects of the hobby, that were turning out amazing work when GW was an infant idea and the hobby around that doesn't have much traction on cool mini and perhaps that is a prevalent view.

I am sure your comp will be a success, anything that throws that amount of money compared to the 0 in other comps will be as long as you are fair about it and I look forward to seeing the pictures and things it inspires.
http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t201/Echoshard46/win.gif

mercius
01-11-2010, 06:13 AM
I am agreeing with my British friends on this one.

Darklord
01-11-2010, 10:48 AM
for my 2 penneth I don't see a problem with the prize on thi one. Its only like the contest we do here - we offer plenty of prizes albeit on a much much smaller scale but they invariably attract more entries than the just for fun contests we hold each month. Im very impressed with the prize and I personally think it will give the hobby a real boost. Its certainly got people talking! I don't think it really matters where the funding comes from - that's Chern's concern not ours, but Cmon is a highly successful company in its own right.
It keeps cropping up about the award system used on the disadvantage of using the first past the post system. Sure the open system is fairer but its not always the best format, certainly not when there are prizes like this on offer. How would you offer prizes if you didn't know how many would win? You couldn't say every one winning gets $1000 because you may get 1 winner you may get 50 , its not viable in this instance and having a 'winner takes all' system here does add to the Kudos of winning.
The voting system on cmon isn't right in my opinion but Chern did hint at safeguards been put in place for this so hopefully that will address some concerns and maybe even lead to improvements in the normal voting system?
Anyway I think it will be spectacular and its creating a real buzz. I wish you all the best with it Chern and appreciate you taking the time to come on here and give a response.

Oh and :Wamp:

Iacton
01-11-2010, 12:32 PM
The very fact that we're having this discussion at all shows that it's working

This.

It will be popular. It will raise the profile of the hobby outside of Europe. Some Europeans and Australians and maybe Japanese most likely will attend/compete. The lure of big cash will most likely draw in some names from other branches of the "hobby".

I think that the addition of the cash is a simple way of short cutting the name building that other events achieve or a longer period of time - see Salute or Euro for example. I don't necessarily agree with it, but the cash prize isn't disproportionate to what mini companies can and do earn.

The most difficult thing will be sustaining this year on year. If it's still around in 5 years time, and thriving, then brilliant, as it will have done what it set out to achieve - providing the same person hasn't won 5 years running! If we are preparing ourselves for CB2020 and talking about it as THE top comp to win, then all the better.

Good luck to Chern Ann and the rest of the organisers. I think this will be a big one to pull off. I shan't be attending, but only as Chicago is too far away. I will be very interested in how it turns out though. :cool:

wiccanpony
01-11-2010, 08:07 PM
Iíve been reading on some other mini forums about the CMONís Crystal Brush $10,000 prize Ö. Many are excited about it.
I think this could be a boost for our hobby and I do like the open use of any companies minis, still a little foggy on how the judging goes, and why the US?

Hinton
01-11-2010, 08:15 PM
Donna, not sure if you knew, but that's being discussed here:

http://www.wamp-forum.com/VB4/showthread.php?4780-Crystal-brush..-10k-1st-prize-painting-comp&highlight=crystal

War Griffon
01-11-2010, 08:22 PM
Apologies for any confusion with the above two posts compared to the rest of them but I thought it best to merge the two threads rather than have them going off in separate directions :smile:

Darklord
01-11-2010, 08:27 PM
confusion? we thrive on it here! :06:

wiccanpony
01-11-2010, 08:38 PM
oops O.O

thanks WG

Darklord
01-11-2010, 08:41 PM
oops O.O

thanks WG

late night I expect!!

Hinton
01-11-2010, 08:42 PM
Might have been something she ate.

:tongue:

War Griffon
01-11-2010, 08:47 PM
Might have been something she ate.

:tongue:

To much pumpkin probably

That or she came off her broomstick and bumped her head :smile:

Vern
01-12-2010, 12:07 AM
... and Mike McVey is one of the judges

http://www.coolminiornot.com/articles/5164

Rychwa
04-12-2010, 02:34 PM
I'll be cheering from the side lines... 2127

Here is an idea, we could set-up a poll where WAMP members could vote on "Best of Show" and/or maybe a subject or 2. This way we could see how far off the real judging is. It's a small statistical sample be fun to see where our numbers pool.

How hard is to setup something like this?